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eph612 >>PROPHECY CHATTER-ENDTIMES DISCUSSION >>616


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ChrisMarie- 07-24-2008

Number and name.....been thinking about that one Rosie. Isn't that Walids position about the Mark. Thatg in Arabic is Allah....yadda and is Greek it's 666

Princess of Heaven- 07-24-2008

he said the mark is like a headband, wristband, hat, etc that has allah on it or something worshipping him, he said the three 666's are names of

ChrisMarie- 07-24-2008

yip

4given- 07-24-2008

I have all the info on this. will post it here asap. Have to get my cuppa first -- need a coffee boost.

4given- 07-24-2008

coffee going cold here lol ISLAM, QURAN AND 666 http://www.beholdthebeast.com/islam__quran_and_666.htm

Princess of Heaven- 07-24-2008

i scanned this Rosie, really good read, i will read it better tonite...

4given- 07-24-2008

where did that picture disappear to??

4given- 07-25-2008

The Number of the Beast As stated at the beginning of this chapter, there are few supernatural or biblical mysteries that have accorded more research, confusion and debate throughout history than the enigmatic Number of the Beast. And yet, until this time, there has yet to be a single explanation brought forth that has made enough sense to gain any measure of universal recognition and witness within the Church. In fact, if we examine the two most commonly held explanations, we will see that neither sufficiently meets the criteria necessary to explain the meaning of this most significant passage. Briefly then, let us summarize these two leading theories concerning the Number of the Beast and examine why neither explanation is satisfactory. 666 as a Symbol of Mankind’s Shortcomings and Rebellion This idea is rather simple and is based on numerological symbolism found in the Bible. This theory suggests that because the number seven so consistently throughout Scripture represents God’s divine perfection, that the number six represents fallen mankind’s shortcomings apart from God. Beyond this, it is explained that because the number 6 is repeated three times, that it represents the fullness of fallen and rebellious mankind. While this interpretation may be partially accurate, it cannot represent the ultimate meaning of the passage for a few reasons. The first reason is that if indeed this theory articulates the full meaning of this verse, then how can this concept also be both the Name and the Mark of the Beast? In other words, as we have already explored, the Number of the Beast must represent something utterly blasphemous, not merely something that has fallen short. The second reason that this explanation is insufficient is because it is simply too vague of an explanation that does little to help us identify any specific Antichrist system or its leader. And in light of the vagueness of this interpretation, it also makes little sense in context. For if this verse were simply calling on us to recognize a system that represents fallen mankind’s spiritual shortcoming, then why on earth would it use such puzzling numerological symbolism to convey such an idea? Why wouldn’t it simply say what it meant rather than present such a vague concept to us in such a detailed and confusing puzzle. The dubiousness of this notion is particularly seen in light of the very strong importance that the Book of Revelation seems to place on the necessity of calculating or discerning this “number”: This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666. —Revelation 13:18

4given- 07-25-2008

The Gematria Having looked at one very common understanding of this verse, let us now look at the most common solution. The technique that the majority of scholars and students of the Scriptures alike have utilized to solve this mystery is what is known as the Gematria. Irenaeus, the second century bishop of Lyons, held to and discussed this interpretation in some detail in his Against Heresies. In short, the Gematria is a mystical form of numerology that assigns a numerical value to each letter from any given name. After the sum total of all of the letters are added up, the final result is the number of that individual’s name. If this sounds strange, that’s because it is. In fact, the use of the Gematria is closely rooted to a form of Jewish Kabbalistic mysticism—a practice that many have labeled as occultic. American pop-star Madonna for instance—not exactly anyone’s role model of biblical virtue—is a strong devotee of a pop-form of Kabbala. In any case, because of the possible occultic dimensions of this practice, some interpreters have suggested that this passage in Revelation has nothing to do with the Gematria at all, as the Bible would never condone such a device. But beyond being possibly unbiblical and certainly strange, there are other far worse problems with utilizing this method to guide us in our understanding: First of all, nearly every name that you can imagine can be finagled in some way to produce the number 666. So for instance, I remember reading several years ago with sad interest, an article attempting to demonstrate that American President William Jefferson Clinton had a numerical value of 666. And thus, the author reasoned, President Clinton must therefore have been the Antichrist. The same conclusions have been applied to George W. Bush, Ronald Wilson Reagan, Bill Gates, Mikhail Gorbachev and nearly every other world leader or high profile power broker that you can imagine. But again, the problem is that in order to do this, one must convert an English name into Hebrew. Or perhaps one will not use Hebrew, but Greek. Scholars cannot agree as to which language we should expect to find the solution to this problem, nor does the Bible give us any indicator as to what it would recommend. And to complicate the matter, some have even have suggested that it should be found in Latin. Others yet have suggested that it is through using English, the lingua franca of our day that we will find our solution. When all is said and done, depending on which language one decides to use, and depending on how one transliterates the name from its original language, all of these elements expand the endless variables and possibilities and leave room for manipulating the end-result. Let me give you an example of what I am talking about. Imagine that we were trying to “calculate” whether or not George Bush’s name has a numerical equivalency of 666. Since Latin has no W’s should we use two V’s? Or since Hebrew doesn’t really use vowels, how do we transliterate George into Hebrew properly? How many ways are there to do so? Beyond this, there is also the question of whether or not to use the middle name, or simply to use the first and last name. In President Clinton’s case, there is the question of whether to use Bill or William? Should the title of “President” be retained or not? Should the whole name add up to 666 or should each name—the first, middle and the last name—each simply add up to 6, thus leading to three sixes? Are you beginning to understand the problem? These types of variances go on and on and on. As such, with any name, there are sometimes a dozen possible variations, all of which may be equally legitimate and which also leave a bit of leeway for fudging the results that one wishes to find. How then will anyone truly ever be impressed at all if some powerful individual comes along and his name is shown to have a numerical value of 666? Ultimately, if some world ruler comes along whose name—in one of its various manifestations—carries the numerical value of 666, will this be the sign that will wake up the Church to the reality of the Antichrist’s presence among us? I really don’t think so. Others have suggested that it will only serve as a confirming equation after the Church has pretty much already figured it out anyway. But this certainly seems rather anti-climatic. For if this is the case, then ultimately, what is the real purpose of this passage after all? Why such a strong command to discern the number of the Beast if it is only confirmatory after all? Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, this is a serious problem for those futurist interpreters who take the Book of Revelation seriously. But beyond this obvious and very serious problem, there is yet one more problem with this theory that many Bible teachers are largely unwilling to discuss. It is the problem of the actual textual evidence itself. 666, 665 or 616? While the following news may come as a shock to some—especially to those poor souls that perhaps in their younger and more foolish anti-God days, actually had the number 666 tattooed somewhere on their body—but the number of the beast may not even really be 666 at all. In fact, in the oldest fragment of the Book of Revelation that we have in our possession—the Oxyrhynchus Papyri LVI 4499—rather than the number 666, instead there is the number 616 in its place. (See Figure 1.) Figure 1 The newest volume of Oxyrhynchus (P.Oxy. LVI 4499). The earliest known witness to this particular section of the Book of Revelation (late third / early fourth century). The number—chi (hexakosiai - 600), iota (deka - 10), stigma (hex - 6)—is in the third line of the fragment. Irenaeus mentions in his Against Heresies, that he was aware of several texts of the Book of Revelation that contained the number 616 rather than 666. However, in all fairness to the traditional position, Irenaeus does argue thusly: Such then being the state of the case, and this number being found in all the most approved and ancient copies passage is interesting, as showing how very soon the autographs of the New Testament must have perished, and various readings crept into the mss. of the canonical books. , and those men who saw John face to face bearing their testimony ; while reason also leads us to conclude that the number of the name of the beast, according to the Greek mode of calculation by the the letters contained in it, will amount to six hundred and sixty and six. Adversus Haereses (Book V, Chapter 30) In other words, Irenaeus claimed that the presence of 616 was due to a scribal error. Nevertheless, from this record, we know that the Oxyrhynchus fragment is more than a mere anomaly. Apparently the number 616 was commonly accepted in certain quarters of the early Church. And if all of this isn’t bad enough, there is also at least one text where the number 665 is found instead of either 666 or 616. (http://www.csad.ox.ac.uk/POxy/beast616.htm)

4given- 07-25-2008

Has God Commanded The Impossible? So now again, let us consider this sticky wicket that we have found ourselves in as the believing Church. Firstly we believe that the Bible warns us to use wisdom and solve the mystery of the Number of the Beast. However, we must admit that we are to a degree at a loss as to the specifics of how to solve such a mystery. Should we use a Hebrew transliteration of any given suspect’s name? Or should we use a Greek or Latin transliteration? Or should we simply use English? And if we do use any such transliteration, how will we agree as to the proper transliteration, as there is usually more than one way to transliterate any given name from one language to another. Beyond this of course is the question of what form of any individual’s name we should use. Should we use the first and last name only? Or should we include the middle name as well? What about titles like President or King—should they be included also? And lastly, after having examined the earliest Greek New Testament fragments of the Book of Revelation—we are not even sure as to which number should we use! Should we use 616 because it is found in the earliest manuscripts, as is a common practice among translators? Or should we simply stick with 666 so as to stand by the traditional assumption? Can you see the predicament that the Church finds itself in? We have been commissioned by God Himself to use wisdom and understanding to discern whom this Beast is, yet as we have seen, this is nearly an impossible task to do with the traditional method of using Gematria. Natural circumstances have made this task a fairly impossible request. Or perhaps we have been approaching this subject matter from a completely wrong angle all along. What if God purposefully allowed the discovery of the textual variances in these latter times, in order to demonstrate the futility of our traditional methods of solving this mystery? What if there is a very different solution—just sitting there, waiting to be grasped? Of course, most importantly, any such understanding must line up with what we have already come to understand; namely that whatever the Number of the Beast might be, it must also correlate with what we know about the Name of the Beast—namely its blasphemous anti-Yahweh and anti-Christ nature.

4given- 07-25-2008

No graphics on this post. Chi Xi Stigma as Seen Through Arab Eyes As has been said throughout this book, my effort in writing this has been to help the Western reader see these prophecies through my Eastern eyes. As a native Arab speaker, what I first noticed when I first read this passage that spoke of the Number of the Beast in its original language, I immediately noticed something quite disturbing and equally fascinating. What I noticed led me to question whether the number 666 in Revelation 13:18 was ever really intended to be a number at all, or if perhaps the “Number” of the Beast was originally something entirely different. As soon as I began to examine the Greek text of the Book of Revelation, I immediately noticed that the Greek letters that are used to specify the number 666 (Chi Xi Stigma) look very much like Arabic words and Islamic symbols. While this may sound like quite a stretch to many, as we will see, the Greek letters in Revelation 13:18 most commonly assumed to be the number 666 look eerily similar to the Arabic phrase Bism Allah—“In the Name of Allah” in Arabic, then followed by the symbol of crossed swords which is used universally throughout the Muslim world to signify Jihad. The only catch is that in the Greek text, the name Allah is positioned sideways, or vertically rather than horizontally. Lets look at a few images below to see what I mean: Image 2 From the Codex Vaticanus, AD 350. Bismillah (In the name of Allah) is clearly visible. The word “Allah” is at an upward angle and the two swords are clear. Image 3 Here the word Allah is adjusted horizontally as Arabic would read. Place Updated Arabic Caligraphy With Bismallah From Walid Here. Image 4 Above, on the top line, we have arranged the actual words (from right to left) Bism (In the name of) Allah followed by the crossed swords of Jihad, taken from an Islamic emblem. Below them are the Greek letters Chi Xi Stigma. Notice the striking similarities between the letters, words and symbols. Of course, the clearest resemblances are the name Allah and the Jihad symbol. Image 5 Here we have placed the Greek Xi exactly as it appears in the Codex Vatanicus Maniscript next to a flipped Allah. It is important to point out here that Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Rahim (In the name of Allah, most gracious, most merciful) is the most commonly used phrase throughout all of Islamadom. It is written or recited at the beginning of every letter, every sacred recitation, and it is mentioned before the slaughter of any animal. In short, it is both a symbol of Islam and perhaps the most widely used phrase throughout the Islamic world. And so the question is now posed: It is possible that the Apostle John, while receiving his divine revelation, rather than actually seeing Greek letters representing the number 666, instead was shown Arabic words and an Islamic symbol which he then faithfully recorded? Could it be that years after John recorded these images, scribes who were commissioned with copying the text were unable to recognize the foreign words and symbols and thus slightly modified them into the Greek letters that most closely resembled these Arabic words and symbols? Could this difficulty explain why in some texts we have 666 and in others 616 and even 665? I understand that this is quite a suggestion, and its ramifications are massive. However, consider the fact that the idea that I am offering here indeed meets the biblical requirement that the Name and the Number of the Beast both fulfill the same meaning, namely the Name of Blasphemy—or the name of Allah. While the Name of the Beast is also the Name of Blasphemy, so also then is the Number of the Beast a similar blasphemous name and slogan that is the very name of the god that will be worshipped by the final Antichrist Empire. But if this is so, then how would the English translation of Revelation 13:18 then read? First lets look at how the translators have dealt with the verse until this time. The translators no doubt transliterated word for word, then ascribed the interpretation that was most logical for the context of the verse: Hode here Esti is Sophia wisdom Echo let him that nous understanding Psephizo count/decide/reckon Arithmos the number/multitude Therion of the beast Gar for Esti it is Arithmos the number/multitude Anthropos of a man Kai and Autos his Arithmos number/multitude chi xi stigma 666 —Revelation 13:18 And now consider the alternate translation that the Allah Theory could produce. Consider that the Greek word Psephizo, translated above as “count”, can also quite naturally mean “reckon” or “to decide”. Likewise the Greek word Arithmos, translated above as “number” can also simply mean “an indefinite number or multitude.” (Strongs) With this in mind, consider the following alternate translation: Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding reckon (or decide, discern) the multitude of the beast, for it is the multitude of a man and his multitude “In the Name of Allah and Jihad” —Revelation 13:18 This is actually a possibility. Compare this possible translation with the following passage concerning the multitude of the Beast. And he saith unto me, the waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. —Revelation 17:15 The whore sitting on the beast controls the “multitudes,” which are peoples and nations who are part of the Beast Empire. Beyond this, as we have already discussed, according to the Book of Daniel, these “multitudes” will worship “a god of fortresses”—or more clearly, a god of war—surely the best description that one could use to describe Allah, the god of radical Islam. Likewise, we are not surprised then to see many similarities between the symbols of the various Islamic Jihad groups and the symbols that we have just highlighted as the identifying names and symbols of the Beast. Consider for example the following images. Below is Tom Fox, age 55. Tom was a member of the Christian Peacemaker Teams a Canadian Quaker Human Rights worker who was taken captive in Iraq by an Islamist group known as the Swords of Righteousness Brigades. Notice the prominantly featured crossed swords motif that also features so prominently in our suggested interpretation of Revelation 13:18. Tom’s body was later found atop a garbage heap. He died of gunshot wounds to the head and chest. His hands were tied and his broken body bore clear signs of torture. Tom is also seen here sitting with some Iraqi children shortly before his abduction and murder. Here below we see the Symbol of Al-Muhajiroun, a British Islamic group. On both flags is the Islamic Shahada and behind them are the swords of Jihad. Al-Muhajiroun Again, as we see, the two swords and name of Allah are very common symbols among the various Islamist groups. Hamas

4given- 07-25-2008

no graphics in this post The Mark of the Beast And so, now having a working understanding of both the Name and the “Number” (or multitude or people) of the Beast, how can this help us to understand the nature of the Mark of the Beast? Lets look again at the verse which best describes the Mark of the Beast: And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. —Revelation 13:16 Again, here we see the three variations of the Name of the Beast: Mark, Name (title), or Multitude (follower of this multitude). Charagma—A Badge of Servitude The Greek word charagma used for “mark” is actually a “badge of servitude” or of allegiance, ownership or servanthood. For instance, it could be used to refer to the branding on an animal signifying to whom the animal belongs. Strong’s Hebrew Lexicon defines charagma as “the mark stamped on the forehead or the right hand as the badge of the followers of the Antichrist.” In this case, the “Name of the Beast”—some variation of the name Allah, worn as a declaration of submission by Muslims, is precisely what we would be looking for. Also note that the phrase “right arm” is from the Greek dexios, which could also be translated “right side.” As discussed above, the Islamic Shahada is actually a declaration of allegiance and servitude to Allah and Muhammad. This declaration is worn by millions of Muslims on the forehead or right arm. It can often be seen among Muslim demonstrators and radical Jihadists (See images below). Of course, it is also very much worth pointing out that the very practice of wearing headbands with religious and political messages is a fairly unique practice found within Islam. Shamil Basayev, the terrorist leader of a Chechen Islamic separatist guerilla movement. He was most famous for his involvement in the Moscow theater siege and the Beslan school massacre where 344 civilians were killed, 186 of them children, and hundreds more wounded. He was killed by an explosion in July of 2006. Notice the writing on his headband. In the images below we observe that many of the headbands contain the very mottos, creeds, words and images that we have previously discussed. In some cases, there is not even an attempt to veil the real satanic message behind the Islamic mottos and creeds. Behold the anti-Semitic spirit of radical Islam on display: But wait! Surely the Book of Revelation teaches that followers of the Antichrist will be required to have a chip implanted on their foreheads or their arms/hands, does it not? My response to this notion is to say that if one actually studies the passages they will find nothing of this sort, but rather this conception is only one theory that has essentially developed a life all its own. excerpts from Joel Richardson's book - Antichrist: Islam's Awaited Messiah

ChrisMarie- 07-25-2008

awesome reading!

4given- 07-25-2008

I should have posted this at the begining of the section I started tonight. Of all of the various mysteries that students of the Bible have wrestled with throughout the millennia, the infamous Mark of the Beast is perhaps the most dogged and stubborn mystery of them all. From the earliest days of the Christian Church, believers have struggled to understand the nature of the Mark of the Beast. What exactly is this mark? And what is its relationship to the infamous number 666? The verses that speak of these things are few and fairly cryptic. They are only found within the pages of the Book of Revelation. Thus the mystery of Mark of the Beast is a puzzle tucked within a book that is often shrouded in mystery itself. In the earliest days of the Church, some sought to use the Gematria—a mystical form of numerology—to unlock this mystery. They sought to find the number 666 encoded within the names of any number of archenemies of the Church such as the assorted Heresiarchs or the various Roman Caesars who persecuted the Church. In the last century, there have arisen all kinds of bizarre and often humorous speculations on this subject. In the early 1970’s, various Protestant end-time thrillers popularized the idea that in the last-days, the actual number 666 would be visibly tattooed on people’s foreheads or wrists as an indicator that they have submitted to the Antichrist. In these days of bewildering technological advancement, with microchip implants and invisible barcode tattooing existing as very real technologies, some Christians are now anxiously awaiting the day when all people will be required to receive a microchip implant or an invisible Universal Product Code tattoo on their wrists or foreheads. And if those who hold to this notion were not anxious enough, in recent years the microchip implant has achieved a wide spread usage for pets. As such, I recently heard one individual jokingly remark that their dog had received the Mark of the Beast. Perhaps there is something to the notion that the prophesied mark will indeed be some form of advanced-technology-based personal identification system, but to be honest with you, I’m quite skeptical. I’m not saying that this technology will not eventually be used in abundance throughout the world. In the same way that ATM bankcards are commonly used throughout the world, I’m quite sure that newer technologies will eventually replace them. But I am very doubtful that there will ever be a global enforcement of this technology for religious purposes. Perhaps this scenario makes some sense to those who know nothing other than life in the highly technological West, but in many parts of the world—particularly the portion that biblical prophecy centers around—there are still far too many people who have yet to see anyone so much as scan an item at the grocery store or swipe their debit cards to pay for items. While we in the West may be accustomed to running our products over the scanner at the self-serve checkout line, there are still vast portions of the world where this type of technology has seen extremely little use. Millions upon millions of people live tremendously simple lives and have no use for credit or debit cards, which we often take for granted. How then do we expect modern technologies such as invisible bar-code tattoos to penetrate every last corner of the world? As I said, while there may be some merit to the microchip or the UPC code idea, I simply see no reason to believe that this is what the Bible is talking about when it mentions the Mark of the Beast. Please don’t take this the wrong way however, I am not presuming to have all of the answers. But as I said at the beginning of this book, my goal is to help the reader see things in a different light—through Eastern eyes—through the eyes of a native Arab speaker and a former Muslim. I believe that the information presented here will shed some new light on the nature of the Mark of the Beast and even more light on how it relates specifically to the number 666.

4given- 07-25-2008

Before we begin, I want to say that I’ve always been of the opinion that our interpretations and ideas about the future as seen through biblical prophecy should have a fairly real-world feel. I am very uneasy about so many of the various prophetic scenarios that read more like a poorly done science fiction fantasy/thriller or a comic book than the world that I live in. I think that after you have completed this portion of the study, you will agree that what is suggested here not only makes sense, but it also in many ways demystifies the subject and is certainly a more plausible alternative than many of the other wild and sensational ideas that have been suggested in recent decades. The Name, the Mark and the Number Having now made this important qualifier, let’s delve right into Revelation 13: He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name. This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666. —Revelation 13:15-18 What is immediately apparent from this passage is that there are three ways to refer to the Mark of the Beast. While expressed differently, they are nevertheless essentially the same thing. And so we see that this passage uses these three following variations to describe the same reality: • The Mark of the Beast • The Name of the Beast • The Number of the Beast That the Mark, the Name and the Number are all essentially the same thing expressed slightly differently is the first important fact that needs to be underscored and remembered as we attempt to understand this mystery. So many attempts to understand this subject that I’ve read neglect this most essential point.

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